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The Israel I was taught about and lived in is becoming a very different place from the place that I really know and love. One of the hardest things for a person is to watch something that is important to them become something that is going horribly wrong.

A few weeks ago the folks at Cellcom (an Israeli Cel. company) put out an ad that spoke of hope between Palestinians and Israel - even Shalom Achshav - a group I really respect - said that it was a hopeful ad.

Well the folks in Bil'in decided to put the IDF to the test in response to the Cellcom ad talking about a soccer game between IDF Border Patrol and Palestinians beyond the wall.

See below the flip for what really happened.

In Ha'aretz today:

In the Cellcom advert, IDF soldiers on patrol along the fence stop their jeep when it is hit by a soccer ball from the Palestinian side of the fence. The ball soon bounces back to the Israeli side, at which point the soldiers decide to hold an impromptu game with the Palestinians, cheered on by female soldiers.

The advert has been extensively criticized for making light of the Palestinian suffering inflicted by the West Bank barrier.

A video recently posted on YouTube has tried to reenact the game in reality, and found that the result could not be further removed from the situation on the ground: when the Palestinians kick the ball to the other side of the fence, what they get in return is a salvo of tear gas grenades.

http://www.haaretz.com/...

You can see the video on the link.

This is freakin' ridiculous - Israel was handed a total opportunity - had the soldiers kicked the ball back they could have totally scored points BUT... No - they had to fire tear gas instead.

If nothing else points to the need to end the occupation - this does. In my mind Israel is important. It is a dream that the Jewish people have been dreaming for thousands of years. Now that this dream is reality - the occupation is turning it into a nightmare. Make no mistakes about the diarists position - I am pro-Israel, but, this government has to go. They are destroying what Israel's founders wanted.

In other news,

"After studying the matter with education experts it was decided that the term nakba should be removed. It is inconceivable that in Israel we would talk about the establishment of the state as a catastrophe," said Yisrael Twito, a spokesman for Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar.

A passage in the textbook, describing the 1948 Middle East war at the time of Israel's creation, said: "The Arabs call the war the nakba - a war of catastrophe, loss and humiliation - and the Jews call it the Independence War."

Jafar Farrah, director of Mossawa, an Israeli-Arab advocacy group, said the decision to remove the term only "complicated the conflict". He called it an attempt to distort the truth and seek confrontation with the country's Arab population.

http://www.haaretz.com/...

Now I personally never use the term "Nakba" - I always use "War of Independence" because that is what I think and feel. Yet it is important that Israelis learn about the term "Nakba" because 20% of the Israeli population thinks in those terms. I always thought education was about learning the facts from all sides. Apparently, the Israeli Ministry of Education doesn't think so.

Look, for many years in my mind Israel had a "moral high ground". I know I am going to get blasted for this but, that is my opinion. That moral "high ground" is gone with this government. To me the Ministry of Education with this ruling has/is destroying the good that I think regarding Israel. Today is a huge day of despair for me. I still support the state and people but when Israel starts doing things and running things the same way it's enemies do - what's the point anymore.....

One other note, those of you who think that I am making a case for the P.A. and/or Hamas you could not be more wrong. I am no fan of either of those organizations. I am an Israeli partisan - I just hate to see what they are doing to themselves and to the Palestinians. It needs to change.

Originally posted to volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:23 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Life is not really like a TV ad (5+ / 0-)

      imagine that

      http://twitter.com/InsultComicDog

      by InsultComicDog on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:27:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah Imagine that (8+ / 0-)

        Imagine when someone gives the opportunity to make a good point and you decide to be STUPID ENOUGH to turn it into crap.

        The idea of the commercial was what I liked. Do you really think I would be stupid enough to believe. I figured in real life the soldiers would either A. toss the ball back or B. keep it for themselves. If they keep it - ok, no problem. But to fire tear gas back. Holy crap - they gotta be the real life version of "Dumb and Dumber"

        Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:33:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Dumb and Dumber" for sure. (4+ / 0-)

          Because of course this won't be the last mention of this dumbass act.  The usual cult of anti-Zionists will diary this at least three more times as just another example of the racist, imperialist, colonialist, apartheid-loving Israelis exposing themselves as racists, imperialists, colonialists, and apartheid-lovers.

          •  I hope not.... but..... you (7+ / 0-)

            probably are right. The thing is I don't think of it that way. I diaried it because I want people to see that there are Pro-Israeli people that are unhappy with what is happening here and that we are all not:

            racist, imperialist, colonialist, apartheid-loving Israelis exposing themselves as racists, imperialists, colonialists, and apartheid-lovers.

            Because there are people that love Israel that don't like what is happening and I believe that there are more of them than the bad guys. People just don't see what is happening in the territories.

            I think the important thing is that this is in Ha'aretz. It shows what a Free Press can do. The Ministry of Education seems to be wanting to set back free information.

            Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

            by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:44:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Volleyboy1, this is an amazing diary. (11+ / 0-)

              I do not fall into that category of people you and AB mentioned above; I hope you know that and can verify it from my comment history, but I did write the only Cellcom diary (besides this one) that I can find with a search on "Cellcom."

              In my diary I quoted harsh statements from the Israeli left, and I made some of my own. I was shocked by the commercial, but of course I was viewing it with American eyes.  My purpose was to examine in what way an ad like this, meant to appeal to the general masses in Israel, reflected the prevailing attitudes in Israel. Why? It was not to demonize Israel.  For me, it was to gauge how far apart the two sides were, because I thought the two sides had been closer. My picture of Israel has been changing, but I didn't know if it was because there is more information available now, or because Israel is indeed changing.

              The discussion thread of my diary was very civil and informative (for me at least). People disagreed about the importance of a commercial and about what it means, but there was no flame war. If you recall, you participated.

              So I hope you know that there are many people here who believe that the Palestinians should have a viable state post-haste, that Israel is currently heading down the wrong path,and that the Jewish people have suffered much in history, that Israel should (and will continue to) exist as a state for the Jewish people (which is not the same as the "as a Jewish State" formulation).

              A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

              by Flyswatterbanjo on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:24:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks man (6+ / 0-)

                I really liked your diary btw. It was a great discussion and very civil. I do know there are many on the Pro-P side for lack of a better term that support two states and that simply feel something has to be done to fix the situation for the Palestinians for there to be some sort of peace.

                I was talking (well emailing) with friend and we agreed that while we might not agree with the history or founding of the state we could agree on a peaceful path forward. I think that is the message of Shalom Achshav and other peace groups.

                Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

                by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:11:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Doncha just hate it when the facts (2+ / 0-)

            support what the other side thinks? And then they have the temerity to refer to them more than once? How gauche!

            I know that you think "racism" and "colonialism" are just empty rhetorical signifiers, but they actually refer to real people's real experiences of real oppression. The Palestinian people are victims of a process of colonialism that dispossessed them of their lands and they experience racist oppression in a thousand ways every day.

            Your absolute refusal to even attempt to look at this situation through Palestinian eyes, the complete lack of genuine empathy for a people who have endured what the Palestinians have endured is truly sad.

        •  kudos to you (7+ / 0-)

          for writing an excellent diary. i saw the counter video yesterday and thought it would just be too much of a stir up to post it. i read something recently that reminded me of

          One of the hardest things for a person is to watch something that is important to them become something that is going horribly wrong.

          very heartbreaking. anyway i wanted to share this with you. i am not going to blockquote it because it seems so personal, and really heart wrenching. but you may relate to her turmoil and i can bet she would appreciate your response. this is not normally an I/P blog.

          sometimes it just hurts

        •  Sorry about that. Really. To see glimmers (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, borkitekt, volleyboy1

          of hope, of something positive and then for it to go bad when there was a chance to make it better. Just sad.
          Maybe the soldiers were a little sorry after their initial reaction too, but you know they are always on alert and they react

          We sure get it about having a government that seems to act against what the country is built on.

          Wishing for better times

        •  problem is (0+ / 0-)

          the commercial itself is highly problematic, to say the least; they are unseen and unheard, behind the wall and everything is just fine. Don't you see that, and more?

    •  at least it was you who put this up (5+ / 0-)

      so we can prevent Tom J, Lefty Coaster, etc. from turning it into an all out hatefest diary, whereas you do offer constructive criticism, not demonization.

      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

      by deaniac20 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:02:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also in Haaretz, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, jon the antizionist jew

      something to add to the body of your diary, which seems relevant- some of your friends, surely:

      Leftist Israeli intellectuals demand new Gaza war probe

      Listen to Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions. (mp3!)

      by borkitekt on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 12:19:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the diary (4+ / 0-)

      Your sincere and honest discussion about the moral path that Israel is traveling is greatly appreciated.

      •  Thanks rb (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Terra Mystica

        I appreciate that. As you well know this is a tough thing to even comprehend given my background. But, there are a lot of good people here and there are good people on both sides of this conflict. All that has to happen is we have to bring people together.

        Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 08:36:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  To be fair, the ball could have been a bomb... (7+ / 0-)

    Oh wait, that's not being fair, that's being an idiot.

    What a fucking waste of an opportunity and it just gives more fodder to Israel's enemies.

  •  If this is your biggest complaint against Israel (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Borat Sagdiyev

    then you have nothing to complain about.

    Trying to recreate a TV ad and discovering reality differs from make-believe?

    What fucking chowderhead thought that was a good idea to try out?  What morans actually were shocked that it didn't play out the same way?

    Good God, the world is filled with idiots.

    All evils are equal when they are extreme. - Pierre Corneille

    by LiberalCanuck on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:32:21 AM PDT

    •  Way to miss the point completely (11+ / 0-)

      This was a good example of how people are treated. Of course TV and life is difference - how stupid do you think I am? (Don't answer that)

      As far as the "nakba" thing is - it is a matter of freedom and education. To deny that history happened means that you are stealing from the future. Israel was founded on freedom I believe. If they start acting like their enemies then why would I support that..... Read the diary again.

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:37:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I did, and it made less sense the 2nd time... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Doodad, Borat Sagdiyev, canadian gal

        The border police have a single job and it doesn't involve playing fucking soccer for the enjoyment of pinheads on YouTube.

        Given the level of hatred, anger and violence in the region, anything coming over the wall is an attack and is treated as an attack.

        I doubt the reaction would be any different if the situations were reversed.

        The term "nakba" may be how the Arabs feel about their loss in the war of 1948, and I'm sure in Arab countries the war is never called a "war of independence" in their textbooks.  But given that I am not a citizen of those nations, I really don't have a say in anything they choose to teach their children.

        All evils are equal when they are extreme. - Pierre Corneille

        by LiberalCanuck on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:43:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First of all (9+ / 0-)

          I don't give a flying fuck what it is called in Arab nations or in PA or Hamas schools that is not my responsibility. I don't call it the Nakba either as you should note. BUT... The Palestinians do so if you teach that in addition to teaching the War of Independence (what I call it) it furthers education. If you further education you further understanding and that leads to the possiblity of peace.

          Do you know anything about the make up of the Border Police? Because I do. They are not the best and the brightest let's just say that. You would think that in an area that is tense you would try to have people that can control it - not turn it into a P.R. nightmare.

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:51:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And I repeat, if this is your biggest problem... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Doodad, Borat Sagdiyev, canadian gal

            with Israel, then you don't have a problem.

            I don't give a flying fuck what the PA, Hamas, Syria, Israel, the United States, Europe, etc, etc, etc, teach their children.

            THEY ARE NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY

            I care only what Canada teaches its children.

            As for "furthering peace" by teaching Palestinian children that the creation of Israel was a horrendous defeat of tragic proportions; you may think that furthers education and peace, others may beg to differ.

            As for the border cops; wow, you mean border cops in other countries act like thugs sometimes too?  Ever try to cross the US border? Especially from Mexico?

            Given that the region in question (in Israel) is extremely volatile and tense, I am shocked - SHOCKED I SAY - that the Israeli border cops aren't handing out ice cream while playing soccer with people who want them dead.

            All evils are equal when they are extreme. - Pierre Corneille

            by LiberalCanuck on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:39:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Here this makes sense - NOT (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              capelza, Tonedevil, Dexter, canadian gal

              Here you said:

              I am shocked - SHOCKED I SAY - that the Israeli border cops aren't handing out ice cream while playing soccer with people who want them dead.

              First of all if they want them dead then why are they kicking soccer balls at them instead of firing rockets like the fine folks at Hamas are doing. They are making a point peacefully - you have a problem with that?

              And yes I have crossed the border at S.D. many times... If I went and kicked a soccer ball across the border do you think the U.S. or Mexican border guards would fire tear gas at me. I sure as fuck don't.

              Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:48:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You live in a world of rainbows and unicorns.... (0+ / 0-)

                with no conception that things are different in other parts of the world, don't you.

                Good luck looking for the land of bliss.

                All evils are equal when they are extreme. - Pierre Corneille

                by LiberalCanuck on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 12:02:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  LOL what a dumb comment (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  capelza, Karmafish

                  FYI - I lived in Israel and planned to make aliyah but, I only would have done it if I could have been with my buddies in the Ts'anchanim (paratroopers) unfortunately my vision in my right eye would disqualify me for a part in that unit - so I didn't do it. I was 20 years old and if I could not have been in a combat unit I didn't want to go. Just one of those stupid things. I did do 10 days of basic training in the IDF (in a program for people planning to make Aliyah).

                  The people I got my political views from were my Rugby teammates at Hebrew U. and were Tsi'eret Tzanchanim (Commando Paratroops) who told me stories about the Lebanon war that were wild. When I was there I had a fist fight with a Kach supporter and went after a bunch of Palestinian kids tossing rocks at people at the Kotel.

                  I went to Eygpt and got a chance to see beautiful Cairo (sarcasm there) and how people lived the good life (snark again). Oh and I spent a few days hitching around the Lebanese border and got to visit Kiryat Shmona and it's many beautiful SHELL RIDDEN Buildings.

                  So you were shooting off your big mouth about my perception of the world.......

                  Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

                  by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 12:21:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  with the Nakba thing, given that the (0+ / 0-)

        government does have a say in textbooks as does Palestinians, I have no problem with Israel getting its chance to tell the story. The Palestinians get to do it enough. After all, Arab-Israelis are Israelis, right. Also, they weren't part of this "Nakba." not to mention, the more they identify with israel, the happier a people they will be. And them being a demographic threat will diminish, because I think Palestinian identity of Arab-Israelis (aka non-Palestinians) does cause a lot of strife in Israel. its not like anyone is banning talking about the Nakba or whatever.

        "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

        by deaniac20 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:46:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not clear what you're saying. (3+ / 0-)

          It sounds like you're saying that Arab-Israelis should not be able to assert their Palestinian ethnicity and that they should just pretend to be some other Arab identity.  Please tell me I misunderstood you.  

          Text "Justice" or "Justicia" to 69866 to get action alerts on federal immigration legislation and campaigns

          by Dexter on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:36:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not saying that at all (0+ / 0-)

            but they are Israeli, not Palestinian, given that they don't live in the West Bank or Gaza. They did not go thru the same thing as people in this Nakba. I know probably some family did, but the fact is their nations are different. Given that as Israel's government, like in many even free countries, does have a say in what goes into school history books from tax money, their side of history, being that it is Israel, should be taught above. You cannot have a stable state with one group getting one take on history, the other getting another. The book can mention the refugee problem, but given that "Nakba" has propaganda value, the term shouldn't be used, given that implies a cause for what happened when in reality it is disputed, because it just happens to be on Israel's independence day, which creates the rift in society that hurts Arab-Jew relations in Israel.

            "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

            by deaniac20 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:51:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Couple of things (7+ / 0-)

              they are Israeli, not Palestinian

              Who says they can't be both?  Don't we have lots of people in our own country who self-identify as multiple things, for instance, Mexican-Americans.  And it does still sound like you are saying that they should reject their Palestinian identity.  

              They did not go thru the same thing as people in this Nakba.

              That's not entirely true.  Many people were moved to different towns.  Many lost family members.  No matter what, they still lost their country.

              As for your statements about the Nakba, they are so full of shit that I don't even know where to begin.

              Text "Justice" or "Justicia" to 69866 to get action alerts on federal immigration legislation and campaigns

              by Dexter on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:58:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  there are many israelis (0+ / 0-)

              who reference the right of return, as being there right to return to their home down the road only a few miles away. i met some.

        •  Please stop calling it "the Nabka thing." (8+ / 0-)

          A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

          by Flyswatterbanjo on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:43:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you (15+ / 0-)

    Thank you for admitting to this, I know it is very hard for you.  The despair you feel is similar to that which many of us feel watching events progress with no good end in sight.

  •  Is that the demo (0+ / 0-)

    in which a CNN crew were caught? They reported being swamped by tear gas and water cannons but did not mention a football. The location looked very similar tho.

    "Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism." Sir Gerald Kaufman, British MP and son of Holocaust survivor.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:37:29 AM PDT

  •  Thank you, volleyboy. (7+ / 0-)

    Your diary is a fair account of the situation and you even seem to have gotten young Burnsie to attempt to make some even-handed comments.

    Good work!

  •  I think Cellcom got more than it bargained for (0+ / 0-)

    with the commercial. I think they or any company will think before they make another ad featuring the Protection Wall. To be fair to the wall, suicide bombings have been down nearly 90% since they started. And the withdrawal from Gaza clearly told us occupation wasn't the sole and whole problem.

    "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

    by deaniac20 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:43:42 AM PDT

    •  The Wall is (6+ / 0-)

      permeable.  Anyone can take a chance and get into Jerusalem by the Hizmah road and avoid the Qalandia checkpoint. I saw this happen. It is risky, but the soldiers at the checkpoint on the Hizmah road do not check the papers of everyone going through.  The Wall is not the reason for the cessation of attacks in Israel.  

      The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

      by soysauce on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 04:36:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What do you think (3+ / 0-)

        the real reason is?

        •  People in the West Bank are tired (2+ / 0-)

          of conflict.  They simply want to get on with life.  They are resisting by simply staying on the land.  We can expect no more from them at this point.  The attacks ceased for that reason alone.

          The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

          by soysauce on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 05:16:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The problem with this explanation (3+ / 0-)

            is that the attacks weren't being carried out by "the people," but rather by specific organizations pursuing specific strategic objectives. I'm inclined to agree with you that the wall is not responsible for stopping the suicide attacks,  but I think that it was rather a recognition on the part of organizations that they were doing more damage than good for the Palestinian cause. This can't be said outright because it would be seen as depreciating the memories of the already martyred.

            •  I am sure you are right about this. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Terra Mystica

              In addition,popular support for armed resistance is down to very low levels.

              The three hardest tasks in the world...: to return love for hate, to include the excluded, and to say, "I was wrong". Sydney J. Harris

              by soysauce on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 08:57:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Good, and notice that because of that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Terra Mystica

                you get moderates and people like me who want the Wall down so that people can see that violent bombings and terror will get them nowhere. But support for non-violent resistance will win every time.

                See, if there were attacks daily I would be all in favor of the wall if not worse - but with people protesting peacefully in Bil'in - they have my support. More importanly though - they generate support against the Netanyahu government.

                If you cannot reward people for good behavior then why will they behave. And really why should they?

                The Palestinian people in the West Bank are realizing the power of non-violence - Israel's government - if they can't accept that HAVE TO GO.

                That does not mean Israel has to go - that means Netanyahu and Co. have to go.

                Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 09:48:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And so it begins (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Terra Mystica, soysauce

                  Keep asking those questions Volley! A lot of people in the US started out the 1960s thinking that Southern racist Dixiecrats "had to go." Then Viet Nam came along and they began to think that LBJ and the military-industrial complex "had to go." And by the end of the 1960s many had come to the conclusion that Jim Crow, the war on Viet Nam were the products of a system that they named variously "capitalism" or "US imperialism" and that that whole system had to go. This whole process of political radicalization in the sense of people going deeper and deeper in search of the structural roots of the problems of the day was really ignited by the non-violent resistance of black folks to Jim Crow. The global system we live under is in crisis. This takes a particulalrly sharp form in the case of Israel but is hardly limited to Israel.

      •  it clearly is. Far less people cross (0+ / 0-)

        illegally the wall than did people before it was up, and there are more security forces near the wall. It is clearly the reason for the decreased attacks.

        Its not a mere coincidence that when the wall came up, attacks dropped within a very short period of time.

        Do you still think Hamas is "legitimate 'resistance'" as you said in January?

        "Like America, Israel is a strong democracy, a symbol of freedom, and an oasis of liberty, a home to the oppressed and persecuted." -President Bill Clinton

        by deaniac20 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 09:16:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The wall stays (5+ / 0-)

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Wednesday that Israel has no intention of dismantling the West Bank separation fence, which he called "a critical component of Israel's security."

    "The separation fence will remain in place and will not be dismantled," Netanyahu told Knesset members.

    Media reports in Israel on Wednesday indicated that the Palestinian Authority had relayed to U.S. President Barack Obama a demand that the fence be removed since the security situation in the West Bank had improved.

    according to today's Haaretz.

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:44:23 AM PDT

  •  sorry... can't agree. (3+ / 0-)

    there is plenty to be upset about in the ME - attempts to recreate a television commercial by lobbing something over a security barrier is not one of them.

    "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

    by canadian gal on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:45:16 AM PDT

    •  It's ok if you don't agree (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JNEREBEL, zannie, Tonedevil, borkitekt, Alec82

      I am upset for one reason about the cellcom and for many reasons about the Ministry of Education.

      As far as the commercial goes - Israel was handed a golden opportunity for a PR win. I mean the protestors handed them this one. Instead - they now look like brutes. It's not like Israel has a fine image in the world, this does not help.

      As far as the Ministry of Education goes - well I always believed Israel was a fair place - with freedom of ideas and it didn't run away from the hard facts. By banning a term they do that BUT... what's worse is that they set a precedent for future restrictions on freedom. In my minds Education should tell the whole story not just one side. If you are right your argument wins. I know the history of America and the horrible things that happened but I still love my country and am still proud of it despite that.

      And that is a big deal -

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:58:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  come now. (0+ / 0-)

        surely you aren't suggesting that a government follow the path of a cellcom commercial?!?!

        as to the the equivalency about the usage of a particular word - meh. who really cares? i mean its not like both parties aren't already wrapped up semantics already.

        "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

        by canadian gal on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:03:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  NO I don't suggest they follow that but, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, Terra Mystica

          if I were on the border I would have either kept the ball with a big wave of thanks if I was pissed off - or I would toss the ball back. This is isn't rocket science. Firing tear gas at peaceful protesters is not right. Have you ever been tear gassed? I have been - if I was rioting (which I wasn't) I can understand it - peacefully protesting - no.

          But that is not the point... You are missing what I am saying regarding Israel and its role in the world, it's history and it's ideals. Yes, nothing can live up to it's ideal but, you gotta at least try.

          The word thing though is not "meh" it is dangerous. It is McCarthy like. We had that in America in the '50's and that should not happen again. It starts with one word that is so politically charged - soon it moves to become seditious to say any word challenging the government. It starts with one little thing - Always.

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:54:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  missed opportunities... (0+ / 0-)

            yes - i have been tear-gassed before.

            i think this is the problem - you are personalizing this. this is not some individual moral test to apply and see what else could have been done.

            may i ask - did you see what happened before this video was taken? is this particular location one in which specific problems has or had occurred?  but actually - that is neither here nor there.

            this is an area of conflict with a border that has major security issues. not some game. for example - when someone is in the airport - its not the place to make a joke about having a bomb. if one does so - there will likely be harsh consequences.

            "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

            by canadian gal on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:05:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  excuse me you are misinformed (0+ / 0-)

              is this particular location one in which specific problems has or had occurred?  but actually - that is neither here nor there.

              actually it is here or there.

              Bil'in is located 4 kilometers east of the Green Line, near the Israeli West Bank barrier, a barrier that was held by the International Court of Justice to be contrary to international law on 9 July 2004. A week before the International Court of Justice gave this Advisory Opinion, the High Court of Israel gave a ruling on a 40-kilometre strip of the Wall in which it held that, while Israel as the Occupying Power had the right to construct the Wall to ensure security and that substantial sections of the Wall imposed undue hardships on Palestinians and had to be re-routed. Moreover, on September 4, 2007, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the government to redraw the path of the wall because the current route was deemed "highly prejudicial" to the villagers of Bil'in. Chief Justice Dorit Beinish wrote in the ruling, "We were not convinced that it is necessary for security-military reasons to retain the current route that passes on Bilin’s lands."

              i have been there. the occupation does not have to curl up over the crest of the hilltop encompassing the entire hilltop just like all the other grossly imposing encroachments that end up resting settlements right smack dab overlooking palestinian villages. and the high court of israel recognized this but the idf apparentlky rules the roost in israel, not the law of the israeli courts. and the idf are working in conjunction w/the settler movement (yes i have collaborating links but that is another diary) and it is NO coincidence all their 'security' needs just happen to encompass the hilltops, regardless if those hilltops are a little farther away from the greenline.

              this is anarea of conflict with a border that has major security issues.

              what a load of crapolla

              On September 5, 2007, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled to legalize the Israeli settlement of Mattiyahu East (part of Modi'in Illit's expansion), built on Bil'in's land to the west of the wall,.........The barrier separates the village from 60 percent of its farming land. A new neighborhood of Modi'in Illit is being constructed on part of this land.[8] The settlements around Bil'in are said to be funded by Israeli businessmen Lev Leviev and Shaya Boymelgreen who are thereby promoting their political and economic interests.[9][10]

              clearly, if israel were concerned for its 'security issues, it would not be building settlement right on top of this village

              Bil'in is considered an ideological stronghold of Fatah, and many employees of the Palestinian Authority reside there.

              can we let these people breathe people. how much overlording are any people supposed to put up with. this is stuirring a hornets nest. meanwhile the people of bil'in have been protesting (for the most part quite peacefully) for years. but nobody talks about palestinina protests that do not include suicides and massive deaths so why write about it, until now. that goodness for the ISM and the people of bil'in who have not given up. let the world watch this gruesome encroachment for the sake of who? another expanding israeli settlement, thats who.

              in samaria! AS IF there wasn't plently of land to build homes INSDE israel like thbe miles and miles of emptiness i drove thru.

              no, it has to be more more more more. this is greed people, not security!

        •  You are so incredibly ignorant (7+ / 0-)

          of the Palestinian people and what we hold important.

          It's not just a word to us! How incredibly galling of you to dismiss it like that!

          I suggest you learn about the Palestinian perspective of things before you make judgments about what's important to them and what isn't.

          Just unbelievable...

    •  It's one of those small gestures, however (8+ / 0-)

      That works to defuse the conflict.  One small gesture alone isn't worth much, but when you start piling up small gestures, they are hard to ignore. You start seeing that "the Enemy" may not be so different after all.

      In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:16:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  small gesture? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Karmafish

        how about both parties stop acting like imbeciles with ridiculous preconditions? that's a small gesture i can get behind.

        this is just absurd.

        first weighing the political fallout from a commercial??? then questionable experiments with a soccer ball? my goodness.

        "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

        by canadian gal on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:22:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But see (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, canadian gal

          look at the firestorm that has erupted - I mean I pulled this out Israel's most well known paper. They found fit to report on it. Perhaps, you are underestimating what it means.

          Generally canadiangal I think you are a really good addition to this site and discussion and i think you make good points... so please don't take what I am saying as being confrontational - I just think you need to look more deeply here at the ramifications of all of this.

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:57:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i think we are allowed to disagree. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1

            they are - as are you, free to report on whatever you wish. i am also allowed to call foul though ;)

            "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

            by canadian gal on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:09:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  re firestorm (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Terra Mystica

            i think it is probably a very good thing these commercials were made. the tactics being used by both sides of the fence need the light of day and to be scrutinized. if people are protesting for years and years and it takes a cell phone commercial to bring attention to them. i say rock on.

  •  Cell phone towers (6+ / 0-)

    often become sites of illegal outpost building in the West Bank.  

    Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

    by Eiron on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:47:19 AM PDT

  •  but in defense of the security guards (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Borat Sagdiyev

    on this one, how do the security guards not know what is next. The first, a soccer ball, next could be something more harmful. And given how easily a bomb could be in the ball, and the history of intifadas and IEDs, tho it was a low chance of it, I think its a good warning to not throw anything over the fence.

    "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

    by deaniac20 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:48:24 AM PDT

  •  ?why not thank Israel for not killing anyone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jon the antizionist jew

    that day, Volley? Why so negative?
    None of my friends (or friends of friends) was killed or even shot that day.

    all praise and glory to the "most moral army in the world".

    How come these anti-Israel propagandists can't think of anything positive to say!  /end snark.

    Actually, what is not mentioned in the article  is that the Israeli military did kidnap several community members for their part in the protests, and is working hard to end all protests of the Wall that will destroy this community.

    Bassem, who was killed, the Army admits, by "unauthorized fire" last April, still, to our knowledge has no justice, as the perp has not been arrested or charged... though i would like to hear otherwise.

    "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

    by Tom J on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:58:06 AM PDT

    •  Hey Tom (2+ / 0-)

      Your comments are have been noted and diaried - why don't you just stick the point at hand. See Tom the reason I have no respect for you is that you just protest one side it is all you give a shit about. The PA and Hamas are way more reactionary than the Israeli gov't yet you could care less. Thus you are less than honest on this issue.

      So really your snark is unwelcome and your hearsay is as well.

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:12:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  protest the occupiers and the occupied? (2+ / 0-)

        no, sorry, makes no sense.

        "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

        by Tom J on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:17:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And that Tom (2+ / 0-)

          Is why you fail.

          Selective protest of a principle makes you hypocritical. If the people you support are as bad or worse than what you are protesting then what's your point.

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:35:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  by your standards (3+ / 0-)

            you would have insisted that i protested the "both sides" in the South Africa "conflict" too, supposing they were equally "at fault".

            and fyi, the "people i support" are all the people of the Middle East. It is the systems of oppression set up by the State of Israel that i oppose.

            "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

            by Tom J on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:40:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No you are making a false (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Paul in Berkeley

              equivalency here. Both sides were not equally bad in South Africa. South Africa was a state based on racial inequality and superiority of one people over another. Israel is not.

              Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:00:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry volley (4+ / 0-)

                This is a good diary and you should be encouraged to continue with your efforts to see the other side. But Israel is very much a state based "on racial inequality and superiority of one people over another" and you would be hard-pressed to find a single Palestinian who thinks otherwise for the simple reason that it is an inescapable conclusion based on their lived experiences and you should not be so quick to dismiss it.

                Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is very racialized. The way many Israelis and even their sympathizers talk about Palestinians and Arabs is quite racist. Israel's citizenship laws which grant rights to my Los Angeles born wife that they don't to people actually born within the Green Line purely on the basis of ethnic descent, are racist. And of course the practice of building settlements and designating those born within them as citizens while not extending the same rights to their Palestinian neighbors is as racist as they come. Israel has even recently become a state in which a Jewish minority population rules over a Palestinian majority.

                I know that it is very difficult to look at something that you love in this sort of light, but one of the things that I have consistently admired about your participation here has been precisely your efforts to see things from other peoples point of view. I strongly urge you to continue to do this even when it leads you to uncomfortable or unpleasant conclusions.

          •  Let's be fair, Volley (8+ / 0-)

            Yes, Hamas is...to put it mildly...guilty of a lot of crimes.  But when we're talking about the occupation, we're talking about the Israeli government vs. the Palestinian people.  The wall, the siege of Gaza, all of it is aimed at the people of Palestine, not at any one organization.  So unless you are saying that all Palestinians are terrorists, this is not a situation in which the people we support are as bad or worse than what we are protesting.  

            Thanks for a very good diary!

            Text "Justice" or "Justicia" to 69866 to get action alerts on federal immigration legislation and campaigns

            by Dexter on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:43:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good Point Dexter (4+ / 0-)

              I think you and others are protesting the occupation and what is happening I respect that. I think Tom has a different agenda.

              The Palestinian are no more terrorist than the Israeli people - they just want to get on with their lives. I think the leadership of the Palestinians are on par with Bibi and his crew. I think the people themselves deserve a better turn and someone has to take that first step.

              Look, I think the barrier has to come down. But if it does and there is a spate of suicide attacks then I regretablely would say it goes back or there would be worse consequences. But, really I think if Israel would just end the occupation that drains treasure, and spirit - I think they could find the peace and security they crave.

              Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

              by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:04:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i would support (0+ / 0-)

                israels decision to build a security wall on their own land if that was there choice. building it inside palestinian territory on the pretense of security and then filling it up w/illegal settlements is BS.

                israel and palestine need borders. and then everyone  needs to respect those borders. otherwise you are going to end up w/a one state solution. and if that happens i will be supporting the equal rights for everyone in that one state.

                •  Pretense of Security (3+ / 0-)

                  This is a key point. Whatever their ultimate roots, Israel has legitimate concerns for the security of its citizens. But those who invoke those concerns as if the actual location of the wall wasn't important are basically acting as apologists for an ongoing process of colonial dispossession. And this goes to the very nature of the Israeli state. The settlements are not there because of some crazy settlers. They are there because every single Israeli government since 1967 was committed to colonizing more Palestinian land.

                  •  That's true with respect to the government (0+ / 0-)

                    Is that true with respect to the population? You know, the voters?

                    I think that's part of my problem here.  Yes, the "security" concerns are usually pretextual or, maybe more accurately, serve a dual purpose.  Ultimately, though, the successive Israeli governments you refer to reflect the political will of the electorate (however disjointed it may be given their electoral process, just as ours often is).

                    This isn't something that is true of Israel alone.  Our own government springs to mind.  Look at how easily the media outlets were manipulated by the disinformation campaign on Honduras, or how easily "security" considerations were manipulated in the lead up to the Iraq War.  

                    I don't know what the answer is wrt Israel's internal political dynamics, either.    

                    What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 09:14:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The people and the government. (4+ / 0-)

                      Its a good question. I guess my take is that I don't actually think the Israeli (or US or whatever) government "reflects the will of the electorate" but that neither do I think there is a neta or sharp divide between the venality of the government and the values of the larger citizenry.

                      What I really think is that the electorate gets to choose between a highly constrained set of options in a heavily manipulated information environment that serves the interests of a pretty tiny sliver of the larger society. (I don't have a developed view of the nature of the Israeli ruling class but it seems like military-industrial interests are very big much as they are in the US.) At the same time the many ways that the population is implicated in the actual systematic oppression of the Palestinian people not just as voters but as soldiers, loyal citizens and good Zionists, profoundly shapes people leading them to internalize things like the conflation of security with further dispossessing the Palestinians or accepting their brutalization as "neccesary." For the record I think similar processes occur in the US and really everywhere though obviously in different ways.

                      Thats why I am very cynical about the prospects for a just or lasting peace unless Israel goes through a real internal upheaval and mass repudiation of its colonialist relation to the Palestinians. the Palestinians too have some changes to go through but I frankly think they are far more predisposed to do so than the Israelis for the simple reason that Israelis have more to lose from confronting their demons.  

                      •  Thank you. (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie, Terra Mystica, soysauce

                        Your posts are always very thoughtful, Christopher.  I appreciate that.

                        I've come to the conclusion, myself, that Israelis are as subject to ideological "currents," for lack of a better term, as we are.  I think that what the American media outlets refer to as "existential angst" is a legitimate term for their concerns.  Not because I think they face an existential "threat," per se, but because I think it reflects a collective psychology.  Which brings me to Yom HaShoah.  

                        I think that every nation constructs narratives.  "Words to live by," as it were.  And I think that those narratives are often manipulated by reactionary right wing forces within any given polity.  I strongly suspect that is what is happening in Israel.  Really it happens everywhere.  But I think that individual Israelis, given the right conditions, will respond to calls for change.  I think, as you alluded to, that the modern idol of "state security" obstructs this process, along with mandatory military service and whatever indoctrination they receive in their schools, but I also think the rigid (or maybe not so rigid) contours of collective identity erode with political destablization.  And that is what I think is happening now.  

                        Anyway, just a thought.

                        What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                        by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:55:05 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Destabilization (2+ / 0-)

                          Political destabilization can go in all sorts of directions. It can lead people to seriously questioning old identities or it can lead to people clinging to them all the more fiercely and accepting even more reactionary versions of established narratives. It really depends on a variety of factors, not least of which is the presence or absence of organized forces putting out a counter-narrative. Such forces seem particularly weak, scattered and incoherent in Israel right now and this is a big source of my cynicism. But I do believe things can change. As I've indicated elsewhere I think the emergence of a Palestinian democracy movement demanding one person, one vote in a single bi-national state could be a game changer. Such a thing would cause many Israelis to completely freak out and the repression it would face would surely be quite intense. But it would have a potential to assert moral authority (a la the US civil rights movement) among a layer of younger Israelis that the present nationalist and Islamic forces never will and that could cause real shits.

      •  ? (0+ / 0-)

        The PA and Hamas are way more reactionary than the Israeli gov't  

        how could you say this after cast lead?

        •  Because they are (0+ / 0-)

          plain and simple look at the governments policy on all issues not just this conflict.

          But I would say Israel is "catching up fast" and that is why I have a problem.

          I don't give anyone a pass because they are underdogs. You don't get be a bad just because you are in a bad situation.

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 01:32:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  of course (0+ / 0-)

            I don't give anyone a pass because they are underdogs. You don't get be a bad just because you are in a bad situation.

            okay. i'll just assume that goes for the overdog too. perhaps you could give me an example of actions taken by The PA and Hamas that you think are more reactionary than cast lead. i am not doubting your sincerity  but i am not seeing this as 'plain and simple' as you do. in fact i really cannot think of anything since i have been following I/P either of these groups have done that demonstrates 'reactionary' like the isreal gov's gaza invasion.

          •  lebanon 06 (0+ / 0-)

            included. wasn't that supposed to be a 'reaction'?

          •  Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln (4+ / 0-)

            how did you enjoy the play?

            The condition of the Palestinian people is THE central fact defining Israeli political life. Just as the condition of black people in the US has been the central fact of US political life for pretty much all of our history. Where government officials stand on gay marriage, global warming, or even the status of women is rendered secondary by the fact that a Jewish minority is keeping the Palestinian majority in a state of subjugation by very violent means. South Africa had its white liberals too and by all sorts of measures was a more liberal and democratic society than many African countries if you chose to put its treatment of the black majority to the side.

            The fact is that the first question on which Israeli political figures must be judged is their stance towards the rights of the Palestinian majority and on this score most are far to the right.

    •  Tom, you're way off base here. (9+ / 0-)

      There's no reason for this kind of thing in this diary.  The man has taken a stand critical of the way that the IDF responded to a simple soccer ball kicked over a fence, and you come out with this crap.

      Fail, sir.

      Celtic Merlin
      Carlinist

      Sorry I couldn't take your call. I'm using my cell phone to make pancakes. Please leave a message.

      by Celtic Merlin on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:41:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Alright. That's it. (8+ / 0-)

    I've had it!

    Enough of fences and rifles.

    Enough of suicide bombers and rockets.

    Enough of friggin soccer balls and youtube videos.

    I say we have this out once and for all with a Falafel War!

    Line up, say, 1,000 Palestinians against 1,000 Israelis with a ton of falafel balls and let them have at it.

    Let them pelt each other senseless with delicious goodness.

    {Yo... I mean, Oy.}

    As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly. - Mr. Carlson

    by Karmafish on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:00:25 AM PDT

  •  volley, you know what Palestinians REALLY Want? (2+ / 0-)

    You really want to know what those protesters want to do?

    They don't want a game of soccer with the Israeli military. Although, sure, it would have been better than the chemicals that the Occupation forces sent over the Wall. However,they do have a broader agenda.

    They want the Wall torn down and a chance to cultivate their crops. To remove this threat to their community.

    This wall, and its placement here, did not originate with Bibi, it was built by Sharon/Olmert/ with the backing of the Labor Party.

    The exit of Netenyahu and Lieberman is not going to make a change.  

    "The sword of murder is not the balance of justice." Mom's Day Statement

    by Tom J on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:05:24 AM PDT

    •  well Hamas must stop trying to destroy Israel (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Doodad, Borat Sagdiyev, Trobone

      and no, Hamas' actions are far worse than kicking soccer balls. They fire artillery and mortars at people and blow themselves up when possible. Abbas has to get control of his country before there can be a peace, and taking down of the wall. Israel doesn't want "Peace in our time." Israel wants peace. The wall will come down along with Hamas and the rejectionism Palestinian leadership, and to a degree society is plagued with.

      Not to justify the guards in the video.

      "If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it"-Barack Obama, Sderot, Israel

      by deaniac20 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:11:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just thought I'd let you know.... (0+ / 0-)

        ....since you hated the diary title, what the first result I get when I google "West Bank economic growth."  Perhaps that's just a personalized google feature for me.  

        What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

        by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:16:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Honestly, between us and probably (5+ / 0-)

        between people who are Israeli citizens (i don't know about your citizensship status and i am just assuming, though i could be wrong):

        Do you really think that Hamas can destroy the state of Israel?

        If it came to destroying the state of Israel, we could scorch the earth with nuclear weapons. We could burn that area of the world and make inhabitable for the next 100 years.

        This is the same nonsense that republicans tried to inject here by saying that Al Qaeda can destroy America. No, they can't even though they said so. Can they make our lives miserable? Probably, but that isn't even close to destroying America. The same thing applies to the state of Israel.

        So, please for the love of god, stop spewing nonsense and rehashing propaganda.

        Don't give a damn a/t each & every politician currently alive in the US. Last time i voted for the top part of the ballot was 1972. Never missed SB election

        by Mutual Assured Destruction on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:39:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The real existential threat to Israel's (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica, volleyboy1

          long term viability, security and proseperity is from within.  

          Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

          by Eiron on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:14:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I said that in earlier comment...pretty (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eiron, Terra Mystica, volleyboy1

            preaching to the choir

            Don't give a damn a/t each & every politician currently alive in the US. Last time i voted for the top part of the ballot was 1972. Never missed SB election

            by Mutual Assured Destruction on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:17:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's true of most countries (5+ / 0-)

            Including our own, I'm sad to say.  

            I found this paper pretty illuminating.  The part that stood out in my mind, especially after the elections, was this:

            According to Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling,
            Israelis had an image of themselves as a unified
            society under an earlier Zionist self-sacrificing, landworking vision. This vision is no longer accurate, and today he describes seven cultures, all of which have been impacted by the increasing role of religion and militarism. These seven cultures are: "the previously hegemonic secular Askhenazi upper middle class, the national religious [ultra-religious who are nationalists], the traditionalist Mizrahim (Orientals) [meaning Jews from the broader Middle East, Central Asia, India], the Orthodox religious, the Arabs, the new Russian immigrants, and the Ethiopians."

            A cultural code of Jewishness (ranging from very devout to aetheistic) and a nonsecular system are the only commonality for six of these groupings, and there are distinct limits to Israel’s democracy as Arabs have no real legitimacy in this schema. Security, Kimmerling contends, has become a civil religion in Israel, signaling the subordination of the nonmilitary to the military.

            What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

            by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:24:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Security (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zannie, Terra Mystica, Alec82

              has become the new state religion.  

              Those who hear not the music-think the dancers mad

              by Eiron on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:34:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  interesting article. (3+ / 0-)

              thanks for the link. this stood out to me:

              HAMAS and its new wave of political thought, which had supported armed resistance along with the aim to create an Islamic society, had overtaken Fatah in popularity. Fatah, with substantial U.S. support edged closer to Israeli positions over 2006-07, promising to diminish Palestinian resistance, although President Mahmud Abbas had no means to do so, and could not even ensure Fatah’s survival in the West Bank without HAMAS assent, and had been routed from Gaza.

              Negotiating solely with the weaker Palestinian party—Fatah—cannot deliver the security Israel requires. This may lead Israel to reconquer the Gaza Strip or the West Bank and continue engaging in “preemptive deterrence” or attacks on other states in the region in the longer term.

              "Democracy! Bah! When I hear that word I reach for my feather Boa!" - Allen Ginsberg

              by canadian gal on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:35:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It sounds like the author is saying (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Terra Mystica, Alec82

              that the culture code of Jewishness and a nonsecular system is the only thing that binds Israeli society (except for Arabs citizens)

              AND

              that the quest for security is what binds Israeli society.

              A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

              by Flyswatterbanjo on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 12:10:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The sociologist... (3+ / 0-)

                ...quoted in the article does indeed seem to be saying that.  I didn't follow up on that one.  But it highlights some of the social tensions that are evident when reading news reports.  

                The article itself is more about Hamas.  It's worth a read.  

                What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 12:16:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  wow, some revealing info (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Alec82

              coming from our army war college before the gaza invasion.

              Israel's stance towards the democratically-elected Palestinian government headed by HAMAS in 2006, and towards Palestinian national coherence--legal, territorial, political, and economic--has been a major obstacle to substantive peacemaking.

              the viability of a two-state solution rested on an Israeli acknowledgement of the Islamist movement, HAMAS, and on Fatah's ceding power to it.

              Israel steadfastly rejected diplomacy and truce offers by HAMAS for 8 months in 2008, despite an earlier truce that held for several years. By the spring of 2008, continued rejection of a truce was politically risky as Prime Minister Ehud Olmert teetered on the edge of indictment by his own party and finally had to announce his resignation in the summer. In fact, on his way out the door, Olmert announced a peace plan that ignores HAMAS and many demands of the Palestinian Authority as a whole ever since Oslo. If the plan was merely to create a sense of Olmert's legacy, it is not altogether clear why it offered so little compromise.

              HAMAS emerged as the chief rival to the secularist-nationalist framework of Fatah, the dominant member of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). This occurred as Palestinians rebelled against the worsening conditions they experienced following the Oslo Peace Accords. HAMAS' political and strategic development has been both ignored and misreported in Israeli and Western sources which villainizes the group, much as the PLO was once characterized as an anti-Semitic terrorist group. Relatively few detailed treatments in English counter the media blitz that reduces HAMAS to its early, now defunct, 1988 charter.

              Disagreements within the Israeli military and political establishments over the national security objectives of that country reveal HAMAS' placement at the nexus of Israel's domestic, Palestinian, and regional objectives. This process can be traced back to Ariel Sharon's formation of the KADIMA Party and decision to withdraw unilaterally from Gaza without engaging in a peace process with Palestinians. This reflected a new understanding that Arab armies were unlikely to launch any successful attack against Israel, but Israel should focus instead on protecting its Jewish citizens via barrier methods.

              This new thinking coexists alongside the long-standing policies described by Yitzhak Shamir as aggressive defense; in other words, offensives aimed at increasing Israel's strategic depth, or attacking potential threats in neighboring countries-as in the raid on the nearly completed nuclear power facility at Osirak, Iraq, in 1981, or the mysterious Operation ORCHARD carried out on a weapons cache in Syria in September 2007, or in the invasions and ground wars (1978, 1982, 2006) in Lebanon.

              •  It is. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Terra Mystica

                That was the point I was getting at last night.  The history is largely unknown, but not (usually) hidden.  

                In the internet age, we have access to more of the sources.  It's actually quite scary how predictable these events are.  Hindsight, I suppose, is 20/20, but PNAC and its precursors were all operating in the open well before the Iraq War.  "Economic peace" and the current media offensive was predictable, and the groundwork was being laid during Netanyahu's campaign.  Even the push for intervention in Afhanistan, a topic I approach with some ambivalence, was predictable, if you were reading the news reports in 2000 and 2001.  

                Ah, well.  

                 

                What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

                by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 08:44:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Hey Tom you know what I and the Israeli (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Paul in Berkeley, Karmafish

      moderates and left want..... We want the wall down too. It stopped the bombings and made it's point. Now it is done.

      Funny, I/we want the same things for those farmers. But, we don't want people strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up disco's. There has to be a strong counter-Insurgency program in place if the wall is to come down. I don't have a problem with that - do you Tom?

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:16:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree (6+ / 0-)

      I think that the exit of the current Israeli government will open up an opportunity.  Between Cast Lead and Netanyahu, there has been mounting pressure for Israel to alter its policies.  

      I don't think it is going to be an easy path by any means, but I do think getting rid of this right wing government is one of many necessary steps.

      What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

      by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:24:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  EXACTLY Alec. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paul in Berkeley, Alec82

        Well put. This is where President Obama's ME intiative comes into play.

        Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

        by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:27:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree, but not until there is some substantial (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alec82, canadian gal

        and credible alternative to take it's place.  Otherwise we get indecipherable policy mush, yet again.

        Livni/Kadima seem to me to be the hope for that.  She is making differentiating noises about truly seeking peace (principally on settlements), but is not there yet, imvho.

        Political conditions have to solidify and crystalize on both sides before this gov't collapses (or maybe even is allowed to collapse) if progress is to be made.  There just isn't enough contrast in Israeli political circles to make progress at this point, again, imho.

        btw, happy your back.

        "Peace be the journey. Cool Runnings!"

        by Terra Mystica on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 08:42:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Hamas and the Settlers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica

          What do you think about delisting their FTO status? Eiron suggested listing some of the more extreme settler groups (with which I am not very familiar).  I don't think that will work because what little information I have been able to gather on the settler movement suggests that domestic opposition would be quick and fierce.  I think that a contingent delisting by the US government might provide some breathing room for negotiations, though.  It has the benefit of being a political question that's unreviewable by the courts here.  A fairly typical carrot and stick approach, but one that I think might work.  

          Of course they are in possession of classified information that informs that process that I am not, but I thought that, as a policy proposal (for pushback if nothing else) it might be worth a try.  

          Glad to be back, btw.  And thank you.

          What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

          by Alec82 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 08:58:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just my opinion, but I think that legalisms and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alec82

            genuine and practical attempts to seek a resolution are completely separate policy issues.

            It's an open secret that we, and Israel, are in conversations with Hamas.  Their moderation (in both the Gaza contingent, and Syrian-based contingent) seems to be a result of those efforts.  Why not just make it open, period?

            The extreme settlers?  Yes, won't happen.  The radical elements among them will never be declared terrorists by the US, barring some overt assassination attempt (it took Goldstein and Amir to get Kahanists listed).  I'm with what I believe to be corvo's general skepticism on this.  The US will allow low-level (high-level if you're the recipients) terrorist settler actions to go on for (very hopefully) pick-your-battles political reasons.  I hope the strategy works, but it may not  be designed to work.

            Please forgive' my apostrophes.  ;)

            "Peace be the journey. Cool Runnings!"

            by Terra Mystica on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:27:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Tom, could you please dial it back just a notch? (9+ / 0-)

      IMO, your response is overkill in a diary like this.

      A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

      by Flyswatterbanjo on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:37:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  depressing. (4+ / 0-)

    and for some reason it's even more depressing coming from you.

    you know something's going terribly wrong when an admitted --no, more than admitted-- when someone who is reassuring themselves that they're still a pro-israeli partisan is feeling dicked.

    i'm up early 'cause ain't enough light in the day time...

    by keonhp on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:16:42 AM PDT

    •  YEP Keon (3+ / 0-)

      I saw this and it is breaking my heart - There is a ton of good in Israel that never sees the light of day here at Kos - and then something like this happens an POW... how can it get worse.

      Netanyahu is a fucking joke and Lieberman is worse. What the hell are those two doing in Jerusalem.

      The worse thing is - it is not like I really am fans of the PA or Hamas. I just hate seeing something I thought was so good - become something else. It just doesn't seem right.

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:26:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Note a couple of things... (3+ / 0-)

    ...the fence in that location is just that, a fence.  Not the "apartheid wall" that is regularly decried.

    The video takes place at the regular weekly protests in Bi'lin.  If this were just a couple of kids (or adults) playing ball, it would be one thing.  But it is in the context of protests where anti-Israel advocates (some Palestinians, many not) are constantly trying to provoke the Israeli soldiers to score points.

    I suppose the soldiers could have taken the higher road and just kicked the ball back.  But the actions here are not nearly as innocent as they are trying to suggest.

    The Netenyahu administration is a terrible government, but Israel still has the moral high ground.

    If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that. -- President Barack Obama

    by JPhurst on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:28:20 AM PDT

  •  I agree with you, but it is not (5+ / 0-)

    only this government. Since Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by one of our crazy radicals, the country has been radicalizing slowly but surely. It is being driven and pulled apart by radicals, religious radicals with messianic views and fantasies. It is no way of running a country or making policies.

    My only wish is that the radicals win 100% of the seats in the Knesset so they can have the opportunity to enact their crazy policies. Only then the rest of the Israelis realize that they need to seriously reevaluate and rethink  their political options.

    The greatest danger to Israel is not from the outside. We can pretty much take care of ourselves, militarily and otherwise. The danger is on the domestic front.  

    Don't give a damn a/t each & every politician currently alive in the US. Last time i voted for the top part of the ballot was 1972. Never missed SB election

    by Mutual Assured Destruction on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:28:52 AM PDT

  •  Do you think the repressive politics (7+ / 0-)

    of the Occupation started when Cellcom put out its ad?

    Or could it have started when Israel expelled 700,000 Palestinians and expropriated their property in 1948?

    Like you, I grew up believing strongly in Israel.  As I learned more about how Palestinians have routinely been treated there, however, I found that I could support Israel less and less.

    The Occupation is the current form of the cancer that eats away at Israeli society.  The root disease, however, is the abiding belief among so many Israelis that Palestinians are somehow inferior to Jews.

    Richard "The Dick" Cheney: screwing America since 1969

    by litho on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:58:56 AM PDT

  •  BTW I/P 101 comments (9+ / 0-)

    and NO HR's - who would've thunk it.

    Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 11:18:21 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for your diary, volley. (7+ / 0-)

    I understand that what you're experiencing is hard for you, and I sympathize.

    The bigger story for me is the removal of the word "Nakba" (always to be capitalized, and pronounced "KNACK-bah" btw) from the textbooks. If you're interested in expanding your knowledge on this, you should know that the Nakba is not a single event (the creation of Israel). It is the collective experience of dispossession, humiliation, and suffering that has befallen the Palestinian people since 1948. And it isn't all related only to what Israel has done to Palestinians.

    So, to me, this is much more egregious than non-Palestinians even realize. The Israeli government is not only removing the mention of how the other group of people involved in the conflict view it, they are erasing a part of their history.

    •  Yep, that is what pisses me off (4+ / 0-)

      They are trying to change history to fit their story. I mean I don't think the formation of Israel is a catastrophe but, I can totally see how the Palestinians would.

      The thing is we have to be able to understand each other. Did the gov't ever think that by acknowleding that they can see the Palestinian perspective (even if they don't agree with it) the Palestinians might see them as becoming more humane and more honest.

      It is so amazing to me that someone would be stupid enough to try to rewrite history in this day and age. By denying the Palestinians this term you now are telling them: "No, you could not have seen things this way and no matter what you say you are wrong" - We all know how well that works.

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 04:17:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  AHA 201 comments (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deaniac20, Alec82, canadian gal

    AND NO HR IN I/P now that HAS to be a record.

    Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

    by volleyboy1 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 07:53:24 PM PDT

  •  As others have said here, this must have been (4+ / 0-)

    extremely difficult to acknowledge, let alone post publicly.   I commend your introspection, and your ability to do so.

    You raise two important points here, imho:

    1. This debate is, or should be, about the going forward (because the past is really painful and, well, has been argued ad infinitum; and,
    1. The opportunity lost/cost should be the rallying/agreement point for both sides.

    These are likely two facets of the same overall concept, namely how to resolve the conflict.  In debate here, and by example, in US policy and ultimately in the region.

    We all here want some resolution to this, and we go back and forth to demonstrate who is "worser" in the hope that new readers will see it our way.  But as you say, it is the opportunity to resolve that should be the prospective focus.  Failing to focus on this means more deconstructive tit-for-tat.  Success in focusing on this means suspending some/considerable disbelief in the motives of the "other" side, and focusing on what happens if this goes on for the next 60 years.  Every lost opportunity to resolve this conflict means more people like you will question (and maybe lose) their faith and support for Israel and all that means.  Similarly, it will harden the hearts of Palestinians (and non-regional others), and all that means.  The two are inextricably linked, and argue for the same end, good or bad.  Simply put, more people will die for no apparent reason.  I think justice is the fulcrum here.

    Maybe that is a poor rehash of the obvious, but if it is, it is all too often lost in these debates (again, here and in the region).

    So I would argue that we, as a fixture in the Democratic Party spectrum, point the way by focusing on the importance of exploiting opportunities for peace.  This is not to say stop arguing, or that radicalizing oppression isn't happening, or that Israel doesn't have legitimate security issues, but it is a call for realistic evaluation of regional power balances and motives, and let's get on with solving the problem.  There are avenues for this potential resolve.

    Again, thanks for your courage in posting this.  There will never be agreement on who is the more aggrieved party.  I have my opinion, as do you, and I believe they are very different.  There will be, and should be postings of wrongdoing here, but that should not stop us from concentrating on what is really important, i.e imho, two sovereign states if at all possible, or one secular state.  Time is not on the side of the former.

    It won't be easy, any of it, but I think that if we here accent the need to resolve the conflict in whatever way we can individually, that is all to the good.

    FWIW.

    "Peace be the journey. Cool Runnings!"

    by Terra Mystica on Wed Jul 22, 2009 at 10:33:34 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for the reply (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Terra Mystica, Alec82

      As you know and what Jon posted below we have very different beliefs and historical perspectives. Personally I don't feel anything I have done reflected anything that is so noteworthy. I took an article that existed in Ha'aretz and expanded upon it. No sources I used were outside Israel. That is important because it shows how Israel does criticize itself - something that many other nations in the area as well as movements do not allow in such a peaceful fashion. People at DKos need to recognize that and understand that Israel is a democracy and right now it is in the moral fight of it's life.

      But that is neither here nor there.

      You are right - going forward is the way to go. How do we fix things. I can not and will never (or so I say now - but really I cannot see it) go for a one state solution. Just being honest here (and neither sides version of a one state solution - because Israel has one too that is much more likely if the Palestinians don't get their electoral act together). The situation gets more and more critical each day - The Israeli right is fighting for its life and they are resorting to worse tactics to continue it. They need a bogeyman. If Hamas can stop the rockets completely and contain their militants then there will be no way in time that Israel can continue on it's blockade. But every hate filled rhetorical speech every militant rocket or gunman that attacks with Hamas folks just standing around "whistling dixie" just gives Israel an excuse.

      The Israeli right needs groups like Hamas around, that is why what is happening in Bil'in is so negative for them. As long as those protests are peaceful - the Israelis have a big problem. The second terror returns - POW - they are let off the hook.

      My feelings toward this are that we need to find a way together (the Israeli Moderates - Left and Palestinian moderates) to work an agreement. It is time to go forward not keep slamming each other as we so often do.

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 10:10:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I just read rbguy's diary. It is an extremely (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alec82, volleyboy1, canadian gal

        accurate snapshot of current, constructive thinking on how to resolve the conflict, imho, and how that thinking is developing in concept, credibility, and support.

        Hamas should not have reinstigated rocket attacks last November, despite any provocations real or otherwise.  As you say they were starting to create a perception problem for Israel.  Non-violence is the only path forward now.  The side that demonstrates it the most, furthers its objectives the most.  I think that has the most practical bearing on the outcome of the one-state, two-state debate.

        A recurring question I have when reading these threads is why people that stridently argue the Israeli gov't talking points (bad phrasing, but I'll go with it) don't see the road to one-state inevitability they are supporting.  If I had the vested interest in Israel's success that you and others do, I would be screaming (politely, of course) to whoever would listen, for as long as they would listen, for Israel to stop its current self-destructive bent.  You are one of the very very few that has publicly done so (DrSteveB did an anti-occupation diary several months ago).  Instead there is ambivalence and/or at least public acquiescence to the immediacy of the need to end the occupation, if not for raw justice, then for the preservation of Israel's basic "character."

        I predict the Palestinians will adopt a successful non-violent front here soon, and it will be recognized by the world as such.  It's already happening, as rbguy points out.  I'm not sure the traditional means of countering that through PR and provocation will be effective anymore.  The stakes are too high, and change is in the wind.  I hope that Israel can get out in front of that change.   With your help...

        Just talkin'.  Again, much courage in your diary.  

        Be well.

        "Peace be the journey. Cool Runnings!"

        by Terra Mystica on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 01:02:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good reply (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica, Alec82

          I can't disagree with what you are suggesting. I have written letters to Pelosi, Boxer and DiFi urging them to push President Obama's M.E. peace initiatives.

          I am trying to come up with a plan here to see what people think. You never know who might see it and incorporate ideas.

          I just can't believe that the Israeli right wing can't see 10 years into the future. There is no future for how they are running things.

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 03:08:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for posting this (0+ / 0-)

    and for recognizing that Israeli PR is not congruent with what is actually happening on the ground in Palestine/Israel. Of course, I could have told (and have been telling) you and others, that.

    I also do hope that this can maybe help you assess some of the assumptions that you have, and question them too (I know I question mine constantly). Like...

    -"I am pro-Israel, but, this government has to go. They are destroying what Israel's founders wanted."

    for one thing, the previous government consisted of many of the same people and committed far more horrible acts of violence than the current one has; why should we, on a rational basis, assume that they would or could be any better?

    Add to that, just what is it that the founders of Israel wanted? Of course, they wanted a Jewish state in a place that was predominately not Jewish; to deal with this problem, they could either lord over the majority Palestinian population by force in an apartheid state, or expel them, thus creating a Jewish majority state (which would be sustained by decades of immigration from Jewish communities in Asia and Africa).

    So, if the founders (Ben Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Rabin, Peres, Sharon, etc) were fine with the Nakba (and the military rule over Palestinian citizens of Israel from 1948-1966), then why would the occupation bother them?

    Ben-Gurion told Nahum Goldman (one of the prominent Zionists leaders) before he died:

       "I don't understand your optimism.," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace?If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipes us out".

       I was stunned by this pessimism, but he went on:
       "I will be seventy years old soon. Well, Nahum, if you asked me whether I shall die and be buried in a Jewish state I would tell you Yes; in ten years, fifteen years, I believe there will still be a Jewish state. But ask me whether my son Amos, who will be fifty at the end of this year, has a chance of dying and being buried in a Jewish state, and I would answer: fifty-fifty."

       "But how can you sleep with that prospect in mind," I broke in, "and be Prime Minister of Israel too?"

       Who says I sleep? he answered simply. (The Jewish Paradox by Nahum Goldman, p. 99)

    •  Jon - well you know (0+ / 0-)

      That I cannot agree with your perspective. I stop at the Ben-Gurion, Rabin line. Israel must exist. Plain and simple for me - I cannot forsee ever calling for the destruction of Israel - ever.

      BTW you said:

      So, if the founders (Ben Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Rabin, Peres, Sharon, etc) were fine with the Nakba (and the military rule over Palestinian citizens of Israel from 1948-1966), then why would the occupation bother them?

      First of all, Sharon and Dayan would not be considered founders nor I think would Rabin. Sharon was anti-thetical to many of the progressives and was more a friend of Begin. He was however, a good tactician and in 1973 pulled off some brilliant moves to defeat Eygpt.

      Second of all Dayan actually proposed giving the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians right after the Six Day war in return for full peace. He was rejected by the Arab nations and the Palestinians. So.... where does this leave us.

      Well, Israel won't vote itself out of existence and most Palestinians are willing to accept a two-state solution.

      Peace is important - making Peace is important the question of the day is how do we go forward from here. Given the set of circumstances described - how do we make peace?

      Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

      by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 10:20:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  then get ready for more and more dissapointment (0+ / 0-)

        and please, if you could, refrain from putting words in my mouth. I say nothing about "the destruction of Israel," nor have I ever. I do speak of what many other activists also speak of, Israeli, Palestinian, international, etc, which is the prospect of Israel becoming a state of its citizens, as opposed to a state which privileges Jews over non-Jews. This may threaten you, frighten you, freak you out, etc; but it is a far cry from destruction, of any sort. We disagree, no doubt; but we can both refrain from opportunistic rehashings, yes?

        That said, you have little to say regarding the comparisons of this Israeli government and the last, which I have stated is mostly form and style, as opposed to substance, which is more or less the same.

        Now onto the 'founders' as such. This depends to some degree on subjective definitions of what constitutes the founders of the state. I see no problem with listing those people, as all were involved at various levels in the Nakba and the founding of Israel in 1948 (and onwards).

        And your characterizations are incorrect. Ariel Sharonbegan his military career in 1948 as an infantry commander, and Moshe Dayan also fought, as did Rabin, who, on the orders of Ben-Gurion, took part in the ethnic cleansing of Ramle and Lydda. They were all at that time (including Sharon) part of the labor party political machine, with Sharon going towards Likud/Begin later. Even with that, Begin was also a founder, responsible as he was (and others) for the Deir Yassin massacre, which was not an exception by any means. Sharon began his career of massacres after the war, when he helped form and lead unit 101, which was responsible for the Quibya massacre in 1953. And Dayan was a main proponent of the settlement and colonization of the territories, famously stating that he would prefer to have Sharm-al-Sheikh without peace to peace without Sharm-al-Sheikh.

        Here's some info to mull over;

        Soon after the 1967 war, Moshe Dayan wrote in his memories regarding the ethnic cleansing and destruction of the 'Imwas, Bayt Nuba, Yalu, and big portion of the West Bank city of Qalqilya:

          "[houses were destroyed] not in battle, but as punishment . . . and in order to CHASE AWAY the inhabitants . . . contrary to government policy." (Righteous Victims, p. 328)

        In September 1967 Moshe Dayan told senior staff in the Israeli Occupation Army in the West Bank that some 200,000 Palestinian Arabs had left the West Bank and Gaza Strip:

          "we must understand the motives and causes of the continued emigration of the [Palestinian] Arabs, from both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, and not to undermine these causes after all, we want to create a new map." (Righteous Victims, p. 338)

        And in November 1967, he was also quoted saying:

           "We want [Palestinian] emigration, we want a normal standard of living, we want to encourage emigration according to a selective program." (Righteous Victims, p. 338)

        And in July 14, 1968 at a meeting in his office, he said:

          "The proposed policy [of raising the level of public service in the occupied territories] may clash with our intention to encourage emigration from both [Gaza] Strip and Judea and Samaria. Anyone who has practical ideas or proposal to encourage emigration----let him speak up. No idea or proposal is to be dismissed out of hand." (Righteous Victims, p. 339)

        Yitzhak Rabin wrote in his diary soon after Lydda's and Ramla's occupation on 10th-11th of July 1948:

           "After attacking Lydda [later called Lod] and then Ramla, .... What would they do with the 50,000 civilians living in the two cities ..... Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution .... and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he [Ben-Gurion] remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endangered the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward.
           Ben-Gurion would repeat the question: What is to be done with the population?, waving his hand in a gesture which said: Drive them out! [garesh otem in Hebrew]. 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring, .... Psychologically, this was on of the most difficult actions we undertook". (Soldier Of Peace, p. 140-141 & Benny Morris, p. 207) .

        Later, Rabin underlined the cruelty of the operation as mirrored in the reaction of his soldiers. He stated during an interview (which is still censored in Israeli publications to this day) with David Shipler from the New York Times on October 22, 1979:

           "Great Suffering was inflicted upon the men taking part in the eviction action. [They] included youth-movement graduates who had been inculcated with values such as international brotherhood and humaneness. The eviction action went beyond the concepts they were used to. There were some fellows who refused to take part. . . Prolonged propaganda activities were required after the action . . . to explain why we were obliged to undertake such a harsh and cruel action." (Simha Flapan, p. 101)

        While the UN was deliberating the Qibya Massacre (which was perpetuated by the Israeli Army's Unit # 101 that was headed by Ariel Sharon) in November 1953,Abba Eban sent a letter on the subject to Moshe Sharett, he wrote:

           "Sending regular armed forces across an international border, without intention of triggering a full scale war, is a step that distinguishes Israel from all other countries. No other state acts in this way. It was this, matter than the heavy casualties [69 civilians murdered and 45 houses turned into rubble on top of the victims], that shocked the world." (Iron Wall, p. 92)

        And on October 15, 1953 Moshe Sharett also wrote about Qibya's Massacre:

           "A reprisal of this magnitude . . . . has never been carried out before. I paced back and forth in my room perplexed and completely depressed, feeling helpless." Sharett had rather halfheartedly tried to halt the operation. But he if known in advance there would be "so much killing," he subsequently wrote, " I would have screamed to high heaven." (Righteous Victims, p. 278)

        Unit 101 was set up on 30 July 1953 and Ariel Sharon was chosen as its commander. In Israel's Border Wars, Israeli historian Benny Morris describes the killer squad: "The new recruits began a harsh regimen of day and night training, their orientation and navigation exercises often taking them across the border; encounters with enemy patrols or village watchmen were regarded as the best preparation for the missions that lay ahead. Some commanders, such as Baum and Sharon, deliberately sought firefights. Unit 101 recruits went on forced marches and did calisthenics, judo, and weapons and sabotage training, at their base camp at Sataf, an abandoned Arab village just west of Jerusalem. One of its first major operations was to attack the Bureij refugee camp on 28 and 29 of August 1953. E H Hutchison, a UN truce observer, describes the Bureij massacre in his book The Violent Truce.

        "One of the latest and gravest incidents in the Gaza Strip has been the attack upon several houses and huts in the Arab refugee camp of Bureij on the night of 28 August. Bombs were thrown through the windows of huts in which refugees were sleeping and, as they fled, they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons. The casualties were 20 killed, 27 seriously wounded, 35 less seriously wounded." Morris also records the attack on the civilian population: "Foreign observers called the Bureij raid 'an appalling case of deliberate mass murder'... '[The] incident has caused intense alarm and unrest in the whole Strip', reported the acting director of UNRWA, Leslie Carver. He urged that the United Nations protest strongly to Israel against the 'unprovoked attack upon harmless and defenceless refugees. Israel denied responsibility, leading diplomats and officials to the conclusion that 'Israeli settlers' or 'a local kibbutz' had carried out the raid on their own initiative."

        One of Unit 101's massacres took place in Qibya on the night of 14 October, 1953. Village houses were blown up while the inhabitants were asleep. Sixty-nine women and children were killed. According to a UN report "bullet-riddled bodies near the doorways and multiple hits on the doors of the demolished houses indicated that the inhabitants had been forced to remain inside while their homes were blown up". The Qibya massacres provoked international condemnation. Ben Gurion denied any knowledge of the massacre, or of Israeli army involvement. In the early 1950s Unit 101 was responsible for similar atrocities in Idna, Surif, Wadi Fukin, Falameh, Rantis, Jerusalem, Budrus, Dawayima, Beit Liqya, Khan Yunis and Gaza.

        •  Sigh...... (0+ / 0-)

          Being an infantry commander does not make one "a founder of tIsrael. PLUS Sharon was not in a policy making role until later. No one argues the man was not a butcher. But he was a good tactitian generally on the battlefield. When I use the term I don't mean "good" in any moral sense - I mean good in a talent sense. Being involved in the War of Independence does not make one a founder. Policy makers were the founders.

          Your quoting of Dayan is selective. Read Michael Oren's Six Days of War - you can see for yourself what he wrote. Dayan at first was a proponent of giving the land to the Palestinians at the end of the war. When they were rebuked he then figured "ok... that's it" (metaphorically of course)

          You also said:

          ....do speak of what many other activists also speak of, Israeli, Palestinian, international, etc, which is the prospect of Israel becoming a state of its citizens, as opposed to a state which privileges Jews over non-Jews. This may threaten you, frighten you, freak you out, etc; but it is a far cry from destruction, of any sort. We disagree, no doubt; but we can both refrain from opportunistic rehashings, yes?

          I don't want a state that privilages Jews over non-Jews - hence my diary. What I do want is a state that has equal rights for all but, has a Jewish majority that can be sustained.

          Look, you be may be willing to trust non-Jews to look after our safety in a peaceful way but, there will always be those who hate us for what we are. Sorry 2000+ years of history tell me this. I support a two state solution for just this reason.

          If Israel goes away and is replaced by a federated one state how is that not the destruction of Israel. Please explain this to me. You are not advocating the destruction of the people of Israel I can completely see that but, you are arguing Israel as a Jewish state should not exist. I can understand your argument I just don't agree with it.  

          Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 03:59:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The problem (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jon the antizionist jew

            is that the Jewish majority can't be maintained except by treating the Palestinians as dogs and even then it can't be maintained forever. Israel inside the Green Line has a Jewish majority for one reason only: it won't let displaced Palestinians return to their homes and lands. What is that if not a policy that privileges Jews over non-Jews? And as you well know Palestinian citizens of Israel suffer discrimination in every sphere of life: housing, jobs, education, delivery of basic governmental services, etc... etc...

            Volley, you seem like a genuinely decent and progressive guy. I appreciate that the history of anti-Semitism leads you to want a Jewish state. But the fundamentals of the actual situation make that only achievable by systematically oppressing another people. A two state solution would forestall things for a while. But 50 years from now what do you propose to do with the Palestinian majority inside the Green Line? Do you seriously think that will be a stronger position from which to negotiate guarantees for the rights of the Jewish minority?

            You have a hard choice to make here, but I think you are beginning to figure out in your heart what is right.

            •  re: 2 state solution (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, canadian gal
              1. Demographic predictions are actually very difficult, and there have been conflicting studies.  So it isn't at all clear, to me, that Jews would become a minority.  
              1. Over a fifty year stretch, there would be a great deal of political bargaining with Israel, the two state solution would probably lead to normalized relations with Israel's neighbors, so it isn't clear that Israel's Jewish minority would have anything to worry about.

              What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

              by Alec82 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 07:55:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If a two state solution comes to pass (3+ / 0-)

                that has the support of the Palestinian people it will have my support as well. I am just profoundly skeptical that that is at all in the cards. If it is, it might very well play out as you suggest. Or normalized relations could get jettisoned as Israel clamps down on the demands of its growing Palestinian minority. This is a real problem for Israel. Singing off on a two-state solution does not mean Palestinian citizens of Israel will stop fighting for their rights. Indeed there is every reason to think it would embolden them.

                On the demographics, obviously predictions are difficult. But I think its reasonable to expect people to have an answer for a scenario based simply on the continuation of present trends. The timing of the emergence of a Palestinian majority within the Green Line may be difficult to predict, but it is something that is very likely to come to pass sooner or later. And so the question remains whether trying to maintain Israel as a "Jewish state" for the duration is the best way to foster the sorts of relations that will make the country a good place for both peoples to live in.

                •  Christopher - you ask good (0+ / 0-)

                  questions and I can totally respect your POV on this.

                  I realize my position has holes in it but it feels right for me in my heart.

                  I also realize that it will be a tough balancing act for the Jewish majority to maintain equal rights AND a Jewish majority. BUT, I think with a strong economic development policy from Israel to build up the Palestinian infra-structure - I think they can work together.

                  Small steps my friend.... it takes small steps. I hope one day you are right that we need no more nations - I am the first to say I hope that it happens (well not the first - but you get what I mean).

                  I think we have to try this one and if it is successful it might be able to beat the bogeyman of anti-semitism.

                  You're right - this will be a delicate process and the Jewish Majority if it wants long term survival MUST make sure to guarentee rights of it's minority citizens. in a two state solution, If they can do it and Palestinians become the majority than Kol ha'kvod then if the people vote to change it I say ok.

                  Does that mean I am like a right winger on Right of Return - unfortunately yes. I hate admitting that but it is true. I think the Israel experiment has to continue and evolve.

                  Just my perspective.

                  Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

                  by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 08:41:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Our hearts (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jon the antizionist jew

                    Like our heads, our hearts are shaped by what we have known and who  and where we were raised. Our hearts can grow and change too.

                    If you recognize the holes and contradictions in your position I urge you not to fall back on just "following your heart" without thinking critically about that as well.

                    The way I see it the Jewish majority exists only as a proposition, as something that might come to be IF there is a successful two state solution. But what actually exists right now is a Jewish minority ruling over a Palestinian majority. I hope your head can see that basic actual fact and that your heart can recognize it as an unacceptable injustice and lead you to do the right thing in opposing it unconditionally. In such a context, talking about an imaginary future Israel with a Jewish majority after a successful partition is an evasion of the questions posed by the actual present situation.

          •  spare me the sighs, please (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alec82

            We can differ on the semantics of what it means to be A 'founder' of Israel; I include more than just policy makers, and I certainly include Sharon in this very quickly slapped together and by no means definitive list. That you don't, well, not my concern, really. And as for his brilliant tactics, I would suggest reading the Kimmerling book I linked to, as it has more information on him than I can go into here, but it does give an alternative understanding of him.

            And if my few tidbits regarding Dayan are selective, I don't know what to describe yours as; Dayan was, and had been long before 1967, a committed Zionist, one who was all for the further colonization of Palestine, hence, for example his approval of the destruction of the Latrun area villages I cited; look here at his famous elegy hear Gaza, and you see his understanding of Zionism & Israel as one of conquest and colonization;

            Moshe Dayan stated in an oration at the funeral of an Israeli farmer killed by a Palestinian Arab in April 1956:

               ". . . Let us not today fling accusation at the murderers. What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.

               We should demand his blood not from the [Palestinian] Arabs of Gaza but from ourselves. . . . Let us make our reckoning today. We are a generation of settlers, and without the steel helmet and gun barrel, we shall not be able to plant a tree or build a house. . . . Let us not be afraid to see the hatred that accompanies and consumes the lives of hundreds of thousands of [Palestinian] Arabs who sit all around us and wait for the moment when their hands will be able to reach our blood." (Iron Wall, p. 101)

            And the rest, well, more problems;

            I don't want a state that privileges Jews over non-Jews - hence my diary. What I do want is a state that has equal rights for all but, has a Jewish majority that can be sustained.

            Sorry, but in this case you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If Israel/Palestine is to be a state with equal rights for all, it cannot, by definition, guarantee a majority for one group over any other. I mean, if I said "I want the USA to be a state with equal rights for all, but one that has a majority of white Christians," what would you say? How can such a 'majority' in either situation, be maintained in a democratic way? The short answer is it cannot, and the Zionist movement understood that long ago, just read some of the work on the mandate period by Zachary Lockman, Nur Mashala, and many others.

            I mean, just look now, at the host of legal discrimination towards Palestinians in Israel that has been increasing with every government, labor, likud, kadima, you name it. Just like the stark difference between the PR of the commercial and the reality in Bil'in, I can only hope that at some point you acknowledge the contradiction that is glaringly obvious; a Jewish state can be democratic, but only for its Jewish population at best, and because of this it cannot be truly democratic anyway.

            And your rationalizations about not trusting non-Jews, well, I really take issue with that. I have lived around this world, I have experienced kindness and a lack thereof from so many peoples in so many places that there is no way in hell I could make such a blanket statement, anymore than I could approve of someone that said we can't trust the Jews, or the Sikhs or the Muslims, or god knows who. And it is even more problematic that you enlist a Zionist take on Jewish history to buttress such blatant generalizations; can you not see this?

            Yes, I am an Anti-Zionist, Jewish nationalism is not something I support, particularly when it is oppressing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians and Palestine. I think Israel/Palestine should be a state of its citizens, so obviously I am for political change, and not anyone's destruction, just as I wanted a political change in SA and an end to apartheid and minority white rule there.

            So are we agreed as to not throwing around the language of destruction (I do not speak of your desire to destroy Palestine, do I?)?

            •  Jon I am sorry that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Alec82

              you are put off when you say:

              And your rationalizations about not trusting non-Jews, well, I really take issue with that. I have lived around this world, I have experienced kindness and a lack thereof from so many peoples in so many places that there is no way in hell I could make such a blanket statement

              Jon, I grew up in a very non-Jewish area. My wife is not Jewish (hence my kids are not either though they sure as hell are going to learn about it). I too have lived in different places and experienced both kindness from many people and assholishness from Jews. That being said; I don't fit the "sterotype" and I always played sports. I got plenty of "behind the scenes" talk from people that were not Jewish. Take issue all you want with my comment - my experience tells me that while many of these people would never discrimminate - like many Germans during WWII they would not stand up either.

              I realize all kinds of problems with my beliefs and I wish that all people had yours or Chris Days belief in humanity and its better nature. I just don't have it. I am not criticizing you for that - I just don't share your thoughts.

              I do however acknowledge that the language of "destruction" is not helpful hence this comment:

              You are not advocating the destruction of the people of Israel I can completely see that but, you are arguing Israel as a Jewish state should not exist. I can understand your argument I just don't agree with it.  

              See I do understand what you are saying - I just don't agree. But yes,

              So are we agreed as to not throwing around the language of destruction

              We are agreed on that.

              Pigs are not notably aerodynamic, are they?

              by volleyboy1 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 at 08:23:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Our Better Angels (4+ / 0-)

                Hi Volley,

                I am not naive about peoples capacities for inflicting great horrors on each other and I really do understand how the long history of Jewish oppression informs your views.

                I don't believe people are good or bad by nature. But I do think the decisions we make shape the environment in which peoples potential for good or bad are able to find expression.

                I want to see the long-term survival of the Jewish people. I think the world is greatly enriched by Jewish culture, and even if it wasn't the lives of Jews are and that is reason enough.

                I think there are very good reasons that Jews have played such a central role in the emergence of progressive, humanistic and socialist movements. The precariousness of their diasporic existence gave them a profound interest in the generalization of such values.

                I understand that in the wake of the Holocaust many many Jews came to see that emphasis on cultivating the best in all of humanity as naive at least in a strategic sense, that they couldn't trust anybody else to look out for the Jews. While understandable I think this position is fundamentally wrong and further misreads the Holocaust.

                The Holocaust was in many ways a unique horror, but the racist ideology that rationalized it was not unique at all, but rather was one particular expression of a generalized ideology of racial superiority that permeated the relations between Europe and the majority of the planet living under some form of colonialism. In a sense the Holocaust was a turning of European colonialist violence inwards. Thwarted in the competition for Asian and African colonies, Germany turned the racist colonialst logic of murderous dispossession on European Jews (and others) but with an intensity previously unseen.

                The defeat of the Nazis and the exposure of their crimes before the world had enormous consequences across the colonial world. (Two books that touch on this in very different ways are Aime Cesaire's hugely influential Discourse on Colonialism and Howard Winan's more recent The World is a Ghetto) The exposure of the crimes of the Nazis knocked the legs out from under the whole European racist worldview and basically handed the colonized peoples of the world the moral high ground which they then used to great effect in tearing down the whole system of direct colonial rule.

                It is a great and cruel irony of history that at just the moment that the attempted extermination of the Jews was fueling this crisis for colonialism that European Jews themselves were being thrust by the same event into the last great act of European colonialism -- the dispossession of the Palestinian people and the creation of a Jewish state on the foundation of that dispossession.

                In the long run Israel is a doomed project for all the reasons that all the other projects of colonialism have revealed themselves as doomed. But just because colonialism is doomed doesn't mean that everything is foreordained to come out rainbows and unicorns. On the contrary we've seen plenty of evidence of a real danger of descent into even more bloody forms of tribalism.

                My view is that before this reality we all have a responsibility to bolster the progressive, humanistic, internationalist impulse out there and to make them into a material force. There ar no guarantees that it will prevail. But what is certain in my view is that if we don't throw everything we've got behind it what is at stake is not just the survival of a people, but the survival of humanity.

                The ideology that says that the basic human rights of the Palestinian people can be trampled if that is neccesary to secure and maintain a Jewish state is a poisonous ideology which in turn feeds other poisonous ideologies. This does not create an environment thatis safe for humanity, let alone for Jews.

                I don't view the world through the lens of always asking "is it good for the Jews" but I am pretty sure that the project of moving into a neighborhood, kicking everybody's asses and then waiting until they can outnumber and outgun you while you keep humiliating and antagonizing them  is definitely not "good for the Jews."

                The past 2000 years of Jewish history is not just a long train of persecution. Far more striking if you think about it is the fact of Jewish survival. Many other peoples have been dispersed into diasporas over human history, but as far as I know no other has survived for 2,000 years. Some people see Gods work in this fact. I see the development of an incredibly resilient and savvy diasporic culture that carved out spaces for survival in part by encouraging cosmopolitan values of tolerance, intellectual curiosity, and progress. It is, I think, a culture that has much to teach a world that as a consequence of globalization is looking more and more like the multi-national world inhabited mainly for centuries by Jews.

                You have a choice Volley, between throwing in your lot with a vision of better, more democratic, multi-cultural world, or with a fearful bunker mentality that doesn't really give a shit about how it impacts others. I think you can see that, whatever its previous humanistic elements, that Israel is more and more clearly embracing this latter outlook for the simple reason that it is the only one consonant with the survival of the project of a Jewish state on the land of Palestine.

                There are no choices here without risks. We don't live in a safe world. But I have no question that the better life is the one lived in the service of a broader vision of a better world for all humanity rather than the cramped and fearful defense of the false feelings of safety offered by an army flying your flag.

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